Elvira Administrator Aspect Ratio Diva member is offline
Aspect Ratio Diva
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,636
IMPORTANT: Editing XviD AVI, downloaded clips, etc « Thread Started on Apr 29, 2008, 10:41pm »
There's been some discussion about what is and is not good for editing, so to save time (and arguments) I thought I'd clarify our position here.
Firstly, the tutorials we have on this forum are trying to give you good information that is suitable for many non-linear video editors (Mac and PC) and are easy (or easy-ish ) to understand. We are also learning as we go along (so modifications and updates to the tutorials are inevitable) but the bottom line is, we've done some research and are pretty certain that many of the essentials in the tutorials are based on solid, reliable methods.
Because of this, we're not going to encourage some non-standard and troublesome techniques, because we've seen them cause way too many problems for vidders. We don't want to have to keep troubleshooting these (very avoidable) problems for our forum members. So, that brings me to . . .
A word (or two) about editing in DivX AVI, XviD AVI, 3ivX AVI, Real Media files, WMV, MPEG, MPEG-4, etc.
Yes, we've all done it. We find clips online, open them in our video editor and edit away. A lot of the time, it works great! Hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! And that still holds true. If you have no complaints with your current editing routine, no one here is going to arm wrestle you away or try to haul you off to the codec police!
But, even though sometimes (just sometimes) editing in some of these easily downloadable file types work just fine, they're not always predictable, won't work well for everyone, and most importantly—NOT the industry standard way of editing.
As he explains, when you edit in a professional standard codec (like DV MOV for Macs or DV AVI for Windows) you are painting on a "flat canvas" where you can see and paint everything.
When you edit in a compressed format like XviD, not every frame in the video is complete—so it's "fan folded," as the author says here:
"Your canvas is now "fan folded" like the expanding part of an accordian You may now only see the edges of the folds - You may NOT see inside the folds You are now trying to paint a full picture based only on being able to see those edges."
• Slow seeking and decoding of frames. (Sluggish scrolling and playback of your footage in the editor—I've had this.) • Edits not being frame-accurate. (You thought you'd edited that one clip just so, but all of a sudden frames from the next scene "jumped" into it!) • Frequent crashing of the editing program. (Been there, done that.) • Frames being displayed out of order. (Yep.) • Smearing, blocking, and other types of video artifacts. (Yep, yep, yep.) • Editing program giving an error or displaying black video. (Seen this happen too.)
Many vidders will talk about how their editing program "doesn't like" or "won't open" certain file types (often AVI). They may switch to other video software (believing that their software is to blame for their problems) or will switch to editing in WMV or another file type, while all the time, the problem was that they were trying to edit XviD or DivX. If they'd switched to DV AVI or some other non-compressed or lightly-compressed codec, the difficulties might have gone away.
Many vidding problems that might not be at first recognized as a codec issue, are, in fact just that. Crashing, file types not being recognized, awful picture quality—many times, these all can be resolved by switching to a higher quality file for editing.
Sharp picture quality in your fan video—you probably won't be getting that when you edit highly compressed files:
Another reason to stay away: Because they are highly compressed, DivX and XviD files lose a lot of the detail that is present in the original DVD file. Therefore, if you admire those gorgeous "shiny" sharp videos that you see other vidders produce, realize that you very likely won't be able to get similar results if you edit with DivX or XviD.
Why MPEG2 (files straight from the DVD) might not be a good idea either.
This page explains a little better why MPEG-2 editing isn't always the best way to edit (though you can do it). This article from Adobe also clarifies that even though editors like Premiere can open MPEG-2, it's not really the best way to go:
"MPEG files don't lend themselves to editing because the video frames in an MPEG file aren't self-contained. That is, any given video frame contains only the information that has changed from the previous frame. During editing, a previous frame required to fully decompress a given frame may not be present, resulting in poor quality of the final rendered frame."
UPDATE: Tip/workaround for editing with MPEG2:
Thanks to rhoboat for giving us information about a viable workaround for some of the problems with MPEG2 files. This tutorial from a-m-v.org will show you how to "fool" your video editor into accepting MPEG-2 files for editing. There is a definite learning curve involved with this process, but if you have serious disk space concerns, it's something to consider. (Thanks again, rhoboat! )
"The DVD for my show is not available yet! I only have downloaded XviD/DivX/WMV/MPEG clips!"
We've all been there. You have two choices. Edit the clips as-is and hope they work out fine, or open them in another encoder like MPEG Streamclip, Avidemux, or VirtualDubMod, and convert them to a more editing standard codec, like DV, Lagarith, Apple Intermediate Codec, or some editable codec. It's up to you!
"But all my friends use it!" "I found a tutorial which says it's okay to use XviD!"
Fine, fine. So they can get it to work for them. That's great. It doesn't change the facts about the inadvisability of using highly compressed footage. Until we see credible proof of a technical nature that contradicts the information I've given here (links from Adobe, a-m-v.org and elsewhere) then it doesn't change anything that has been written on this page.
So, use what you want, but . . .
You've now been informed about the perils of editing in compressed formats. If you want to go ahead and use them anyway, that's fine! You have been informed of the risks and you'll know what the probable culprit is, if you experience problems. You wouldn't be the first person to decide to edit in XviD anyway. As long as you don't expect anyone else to troubleshoot any problems you have with it, it's your own business, right?
So how do I convert my clips to a suitable format?
This tutorial shows you an easy way to export as DV (MOV for Macs, AVI for Windows) which should work great in most mainstream video editors. There are other methods and software you can use to get good or excellent results, of course. For a comprehensive guide on encoding for excellent quality, Windows users can consult a-m-v.org's "Guides". (Their learning curve is a little steeper than the tutorials here, however, but the quality is gorgeous.)
Expectations we have on this message board:
Okay, we've made it clear, edit in any format you want; as long as it works for you, you're golden.
But what we will not look kindly upon here is spreading bad information to other members on this board. And recommending the editing in compressed formats is generally bad information. What might work for you could very well really screw up another member's entire video project. It's irresponsible to recommend it to others, so please do not waste anyone's time by doing it. We don't want to have to deal with any of that, okay?
I got the idea from the a-m-v.org forums to use this banner. A few members use a variation on this with great regularity, because so many vidders are having troubles with editing in XviD/DivX, etc.
I'm not afraid to use it! If you talk about how great editing in XviD is, you might see this banner. If you ask about why your software won't open AVI files anymore, you might see this banner! If you ask for troubleshooting help because of smeared or blocky video picture, you might see this banner. Yes, I'm mean!
For those of us (*raises hand*) with limited hard drive space, converting all our DVD MPEG files with a lossless codec could be prohibitively large, even if it is best for editing.
There is an alternative called frameserving where you don't need to convert your files, whatever format they may be. I'm still in the process of researching more about frameserving, but I can tell you that I tried it out on my last vid, and it worked fabulously for me. Anyway, from what I've gatherered so far, it's an old school advanced video editing technique which helped to deal with hardware limitations.
"Frameserving is a process by which you directly transfer video data from one program on your computer to another. No intermediate or temporary files are created. The program that opens the source file(s) and outputs the video data is called the frameserver. The program that receives the data could be any type of video application."
There are two main reasons that you would want to frameserve a video:
1. Save Disk Space: Depending on the frameserving application, you can usually edit/process your video as it is being frameserved. Because frameserving produces no intermediate files, you can use a frameserver to alter your videos without requiring any additional disk space. For example, if you wanted to join two video files, resize them, and feed them to another video application, frameserving would allow you to do this without creating a large intermediate file.
2. Increased Compatibility: To the video application that's receiving the frameserved video, the input looks like a relatively small, uncompressed video file. However, the source file that the frameserver is transferring could actually be, for example, a highly compressed MPEG-1 video. If your video application doesn't support MPEG-1 files, it's not a problem because the application is just receiving standard uncompressed video from the frameserver. This feature of frameserving enables you to open certain types of files in an application that wouldn't normally support them.
And yes, that's the way I do it, Elvira, with AviSynth and ffdshow's makeAVIS. There are other ways, but that combination of programs seems to be the most straightforward to me.
Yeah, I've worked with the AMV app, and often link to AMV.org from here! (Link to them in this thread, even! ) If more vidders want to follow their tutorials, that is GREAT!
There seems to be a problem, however—many vidders' eyes glaze over when they look at the a-m-v.org "guide." But if you can persuade them to do it the a-m-v.org way, that would be fabulous!
Edited: Is this tutorial similar to what you're doing? That indeed sounds like an excellent workaround for those with limited disk space. I've tried the AMV app with Avisynth (followed some video tutorial MP4 files some guy made for AMV.org), and created some AVI files (either HuffYUV or Lagarith, I can't remember now ) and the quality was gorgeous. The files could be opened and edited in VideoStudio and everything. The tutorials taught how to prepare the footage, resize it, add filters for smoothing, a deinterlacing filter, etc. It was able to make the NTSC version of BBC's North & South look gorgeous! (The NTSC version of N&S had been so problematic for me that I just bought the PAL DVD for vidding, so seeing what the AMV app could do was pretty impressive. )
This is all very helpful to me, as I was (am ) one of those who edits with divx .avi because I didn't know any better when I ripped. Thankyou for continually updating on this subject, otherwise I would be so lost thinking I was doing the right thing I plan to start reripping when my chaotic semester is over (3 glorious weeks), thanks for the info and don't hate me for using divx in the meantime
Aw, no one hates you, sheesh! It's just that it may end up giving you problems, and then you'll be tearing your hair out! And even if it never gives you problems (it may never - some people luck out, I'm told), it's still enough of a problem for many vidders, and so it should be addressed.
Er, so if I am importing material into Final Cut Express4, will H264 movs be alright and if not what SHOULD I try and import in. I have made my 'dodgies' for iMovie, bless it, but assume I must remake them for FCE or use them in iMovie and export the whole caboodle rough cut to FCE ( which settings would be best and do I have to watch squish whilst in the process of making and only get a decent thing to watch upon export from FCE?)
Yes, I am sure those are dim questions, but hey I lead the Technophobe contingent heehee.
Yeah, the "Dodgy" method works well with iMovie, but I've imported H.264 MOV into Final Cut, and it's not the best. You immediately get the RED BAR OF DOOM!!! which means that Final Cut is going to render or convert the file over. I've imported H.264 into Final Cut before (sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes just because it's faster) and it has that whole "slow seeking" sluggish thing going on when you're scrolling through the clip—not fun.
Right now I'm starting on a project where I'm working with hours of DV footage, and it's so easy to scroll, scroll, scroll through it with the mouse scroller—smooth as butter!
Re: IMPORTANT: Editing XviD AVI, downloaded clips, « Reply #10 on May 8, 2008, 12:07pm »
Okay I have a problem .... For a long time now I`ve been editing in .AVI DIVX i.e converting .VOB files to .avi divx and using them in WMM.... They used to work alright but I used to have a couple of issues with the crashing and slowness etc but that didn`t seem to bother me . Now recently a friend of mine brought these codec packs and installed them on my PC .. and ever since that day I`ve noticed that all my .divx files have been freezing and don`t play in my timeline at all ! WMM simply crashes ! However .XVID files play okay in timeline..... Now I`ve tried to delete the codecs but I`m really not sure which ones I should and shouldn`t.... I need help !
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Female Posts: 455 Location: In my mind
Re: IMPORTANT: Editing XviD AVI, downloaded clips, « Reply #11 on May 13, 2008, 10:34am »
Oh dear - I have avi's and mpegs in my program; also I find that likes mpegs best ...
I've just read through some of the previous posts; I have to admit that I've often wondered how other vidders achieve the great quality they do. I'm a 'dive in and try it for myself' girl, and find tutorials a bit boggling. If something works for me - great, if not, I fiddle around with some other way. Oh dear ........
Re: IMPORTANT: Editing XviD AVI, downloaded clips, « Reply #12 on May 13, 2008, 11:29am »
A few of the files i acquire come in xvid format, and ulead really doesn't like them so I tend to convert them to MPG2, not sure if it is the right thing to do, but it has stopped some of the problems I was previously experiencing.
I use Corel VideoStudio X2/X3 ~ Currently learning Premiere CS 5
Elvira Administrator Aspect Ratio Diva member is offline
Aspect Ratio Diva
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 2,636
Re: IMPORTANT: Editing XviD AVI, downloaded clips, « Reply #13 on May 13, 2008, 11:47pm »
Well, MPEG2 is a "lesser of two evils," but as I say in the first post, MPEG2 is not really recommended either. There are some plug-ins you can buy for MPEG-2 editing (or try "frame-serving," following the AMV.org tutorial linked to in the first post), but I don't get the impression that they're a preferable method.
Also, from what I've learned (still more to learn, as always!), there is something called "smart rendering" MPEG, but I don't know if this applies to MPEG2 gleaned from DVDs (it's more for MPEG2 from camcorders). As Douglas Spotted Eagle (Sony Vegas guru) says this post on Creative Cow, "MPEG smart-rendering in Vegas is only for 19, 25, 35, and 50Mbps streams, not MPEG ripped from DVDs."
MPEG2 editing is iffy and not really the best way to do it, unless you use a special plug-in or special software.
There is an alternative called frameserving where you don't need to convert your files, whatever format they may be.
Amen to that!
AVISynth is love!
I have some shows from the 80s that haven't been released on DVD yet. There is much joy in AVISynth for cleaning and manipulating any file, then exporting clips, if you want to, through VDM. It's also much more powerful and precise than most editing softwares out there.
Do all that first, make your clips in any codec you choose and then use them in your editor!
Takes some learning, but it's the best I've found so far and it's free!
"There are worlds out there where the sky's burning, where the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream. People made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger. Somewhere there's injustice. And somewhere else the tea is getting cold... we've got work to do."
____________
I use AVISynth, VirtualDubMod, Adobe Premier Elements and Adobe Soundbooth. Am familiar with Audition.
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) to understand. We are also learning as we go along (so modifications and updates to the tutorials are inevitable) but the bottom line is, we've done some research and are pretty certain that many of the essentials in the tutorials are based on solid, reliable methods.![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/biggrin.gif "[image]")
![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/smile.gif "[image]")
And that still holds true. If you have no complaints with your current editing routine, no one here is going to arm wrestle you away or try to haul you off to the codec police! ![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/lol.gif "[image]")
![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/thumbs.gif "[image]")
)![[image]](http://www.richard-armitage.org/graphics/xvid.gif "[image]")
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Anyway, from what I've gatherered so far, it's an old school advanced video editing technique which helped to deal with hardware limitations.![[image]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b204/rhoboat/banner.jpg "[image]")
![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/wink.gif "[image]")
) If more vidders want to follow their tutorials, that is GREAT! ![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/grin.gif "[image]")
![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/loveshower.gif "[image]")
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![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/sigh.gif "[image]")
) one of those who edits with divx .avi because I didn't know any better when I ripped. Thankyou for continually updating on this subject, otherwise I would be so lost thinking I was doing the right thing ![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/doh.gif "[image]")
![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/hide.gif "[image]")
![[image]](http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u79/angelique_grace/brightstar.jpg "[image]")
![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/eek.gif "[image]")
And even if it never gives you problems (it may never ![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/idunno.gif "[image]")
- some people luck out, I'm told), it's still enough of a problem for many vidders, and so it should be addressed.
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program; also I find that ![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/vegas.png "[image]")
likes mpegs best ... 
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Amen to that! ![[image]](http://richard-armitage.org/graphics/smilies/squee.gif "[image]")