Post by Elvira on Mar 31, 2009 22:09:59 GMT -5
*cough* 
This is an restructured version of this thread, which I will unsticky and use this in its place. NOTE: This thread was not prompted by any one question or comment by any individual member. I've been meaning to write this new tutorial for a long time. I believe the previous tutorial did not succinctly address the issues that were causing confusion, so here's another attempt!
I CONVERT MY DVDs TO AVI (or MOV) OR I EDIT DOWNLOADED CLIPS. DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHAT KINDS OF FILES I USE?
Not all types of AVI (or MOV) files are good for editing. The kinds of AVI (or MOV, or MP4, or WMV) files that are often downloaded off the internet use a codec (type of compression) which too compressed to be stable for editing in Vegas, Premiere, Final Cut, or other video software. Using some "all-in-one" converter software to convert your DVD to "some kind of AVI" (usually making an entire movie 700 MB to 1-2 GB, more or less) also results in a file that is too compressed for editing. This page explains more.
In order to get good picture quality and a stable editing experience, you usually have to end up editing with codecs that are larger in file size. Some of these codecs are: DV, Lagarith (Windows only), MJPEG, Photo JPEG, JPEG 2000, Apple Intermediate Codec (Mac only), and HuffYUV (mostly Windows). It is strongly recommended that you start converting your DVD (or downloaded footage) to an AVI (or MOV) file using one of these codecs.
A lot of fan vidders are resistant to using larger-sized "editable" codecs (like DV AVI, Lagarith AVI, or MJPEG AVI or MJPEG MOV). They think that it's a bad thing that these kinds of files are bigger than the DivX, XviD AVI files or perhaps WMV files that they've been using. They don't yet understand that too often these smaller files can be the cause of headaches down the road.
"But my friends edit with [XviD AVI, DivX AVI, WMV, MPEG, VOB, MP4] and they aren't having any problems!"
Yeah, and they won't have any problems until suddenly, they do have problems. One of the frustrating things about editing in these smaller-sized clips is that they seem to be working fine, until the day that they don't. They are unpredictable.
"But my editing software just doesn't 'like' AVI files, that's all."
See above. It's the codec. Your software (if you are on Windows) will open an AVI file with a good codec for editing.
"But these exact same codecs worked yesterday, so they cannot be the cause of any problems I'm having."
That was yesterday. This is today. Read the entry above.
"It's not a bad codec that's causing my editing problems (blank screen, crashing), it's . . . ."
Yes, it's the codec. No, it's not a virus. Of course all Windows-based editors will open AVI files; they just don't want to open some skanky AVI with a bad codec. Vegas (or whatever software you're using) will work great with Lagarith, DV AVI, or other files with right codec (compression). No, Vegas (or other video editing program) is probably not broken. It simply has decided to stop working with non-editable codecs.
WE GET QUESTIONS/CONCERNS ABOUT THIS KIND OF THING FREQUENTLY.
"Help! Vegas stopped working!" "The screen is black, but the audio showed up!" "No audio showed up!" "The picture quality is really bad all of a sudden!" "My software has started to crash all the time!"
IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS CAUSED BY USING THE WRONG CODECS. That's what it is. I can start making a list of old threads where users have complained of these exact problems, if that will help convince many of you that these problems are not new, and are almost always solved by changing to a better codec.
This thread is not meant to admonish you or "shame" you into using a different video conversion process, if you're happy with the one you're currently using. Nor is it meant to make you feel bad because you didn't know this before now. (How are you to know if no one tells you?
) If you are editing DivX, XviD, MPEG, WMV, MPEG-4 files and they are working for you and you have no complaints, then that's your business. 
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and all that—we understand. 
But it's important that you know the risks of continuing to edit in these formats. Because (as we have seen on these forums) very often vidders do eventually have difficulties.
If you prefer to continue to edit in the same compressed format that you've used all along, that is fine. Perhaps you'll be lucky and experience no problems. But if you do, you now know that there are more stable editing formats out there which won't give you the same difficulties.
OTHER FAQs
"I don't know what kind of AVI (or MOV) file I'm editing in. It's AVI. That's all I know."
You need to know. If you use Windows, you can install G-Spot (follow this tutorial on how to use it) to help you identify the codec you are using. If you are on a Mac, open your file in Quicktime, go to "Windows >> Show Movie Inspector" and then under the heading for "Format," it will list the codec (DivX, H.264, DV, etc).
"I think I'm already getting very good picture clarity by editing in DivX/XviD (whatever)."
Are you sure about that? Recently I did a test with a higher quality XviD download of a show (about 450 MB for a 43 minute episode, rather than the typical 350 MB file size) and compared it to a clip I converted at higher settings from a DVD rip. Here are the results:
richard-armitage.org/quality-samples/Comparison-DVD-rip-vs-XviD.jpg
And here's an entire tutorial which explains how you can increase video quality by switching to a better codec.
"I'm editing with [XXXX], and you don't specifically list it as one of the file types not to use. That must mean it's okay, right?"
Possibly, but often not. But one way to guess is to analyze the file size. Is 5 minutes of footage less than maybe 150-200 MB? Then it's probably too compressed for editing. (An exception to this would be if you are using MJPEG or JPEG 2000 with more compression, as outlined in this tutorial[/url], or if for some odd reason you were editing DivX or H.264 at a really high bitrate, which makes the file size larger.) If you are unsure about whether you're using a good codec for editing, please post a question in this thread.
"But I don't have enough disk space to edit in one of these other formats!"
If you are hurting for disk space, consider following this tutorial, which can help you reduce the amount of disk space you use by a considerable amount, while still using editable codecs. Also, external USB 2.0 (or Firewire) drives are not too expensive these days. A lot of vidders store their media on an external drive.
"I can't (or don't want) to switch to a better video format yet. Is there any way to prepare DivX, XviD, etc clips so they are better quality and/or are more stable?"
Sorry, no, we're not going to give you any advice which involves continuing to use a bad codec for editing. If we do that, then we'll have to help you troubleshoot the problems that will inevitably occur. If disk space is a concern, again, this tutorial[/url] will show you how to use an editable format but save a lot of disk space.
"But I just converted all my episodes over to XviD (DivX, whatever) and I don't want to have to re-do that!"
You don't have to if you don't want to. But you are at risk of having problems sooner or later. Your software doesn't particularly care if you went to a lot of trouble to convert all those episodes! It'll crash anyway!
"But the editing software I'm using says it will use DivX AVI (or whatever) files!"
Many software packages say they recognize "AVI" or "MOV" but don't get much into codecs. But some video editors will claim to open various "delivery" formats (like DivX), but not always without difficulties. I lurk on video editing message boards where editors are having all kinds of trouble getting various codecs to work with their software. (Often they are advised to just convert the troublesome file to DV or some other "tried and true" codec.) Even if the software claims it will work, there's no guarantee it'll work smoothly.
After all, if editing in all these "delivery" codecs (like WMV, XviD, etc) never caused problems, this tutorial would have no reason to exist, and no vidder would ever complain of black screen, crashing, or the myriad of other problems that seem to happen regularly.
"Only professionals care about this stuff."
Your software doesn't know or care if you're a professional. It'll crash anyway.
"Nobody notices or cares about the difference in quality"
How can you be so sure? More and more fan video fans are watching on 24" (and above) widescreen monitors. They want to view their favorite fan videos at fullscreen. In my experience running a site featuring a collection of downloadable fan videos, the fans yearn for higher quality and become spoiled once they have it. Higher quality is the future. Even if you don't notice the difference, many of your fans will.
"Where are the tutorials which will show me how to convert to a better format?"
Here are a few: Convert your DVD to DV files (AVI or MOV). This is probably the easiest and quickest process to use.
Convert to Lagarith with VirtualDubMod. (A simplified tutorial on how to use VirtualDubMod is here.) Great quality, some wonderful built-in filters. Windows only.
Save disk space with MJPEG or JPEG 2000. Windows editors and Final Cut Pro.
iMovie '09 mini tutorial. (Shows how to convert your files for iMovie 09.)
Clever workaround for preparing clips in iMovie 6 (also iMovie 5).
AMV method. Go whole hog and get gorgeous quality by following the wonderful (but exacting) "AMV.org" method. (Windows only.)
POSSIBLE EXCEPTIONS
A few applications (like Adobe Premiere CS5) have announced support for editing H.264, a compressed format. Other video editing applications claim to be able to handle MPEG-2. (How well they handle it—and how frame accurate they are—depends.) If you are using software which claims to edit one of these codecs natively, and you're having no problems, that's great! Like is said above, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Most of the time these unique "exceptions" won't apply to the average vidder who is used to editing in those downloaded WMV or XviD files. Furthermore, there are video professionals who do not approve of the trend of apps supporting editing of compressed at all, since it they feel it will lower quality and not give as good results as editing standard editing formats.
IN CONCLUSION:
We're not going to arm-wrestle anyone away from whatever type of file they want to use for editing. But please, don't encourage other members of this forum to use this method of editing, when we've established that it can often be a troublemaker. You might never have problems with it, but some other unlucky member might. And if another member has problems, they'll more likely come to us (the moderators) for help, and probably not you.
Also, please realize that any "workarounds" anyone suggests might buy the vidder a little time (which could be good if they just want to finish a current project) but are not a final solution if the workaround involves continuing to edit in compressed codecs.
We didn't make up this stuff about XviD, DivX, MPEG-2, etc, being unstable for editing. We are just reporting the reality. This tutorial (the previous incarnation of this thread) has more links and data on why exactly editing in compressed formats is bad and unstable.
SOME ADDITIONAL LINKS.
Sometimes we get members who are confused by this codec stuff and want to argue about why it is such a big deal. They'll say something like, "Well, I like this other way, so it's a matter of opinion" or some variation on that. When someone does that, I'll be directing them to these links.
If, after reading them, a person still feels that editing in DivX, WMV, or whatever is "just as good," then they need to compile links and tutorials from credible and technically-sound sources which debunk the commonly-held belief that the compressed nature of inter-frame compression (#5 on this page) can cause a lot of trouble for a lot of editing software. If they can't or won't do that, they'll be asked to stop arguing about it.
This is not to say that any vidder should not edit in any way they see fit, but they must understand that "liking" to do something a certain way, and expecting others (in this case, many members of this forum) to agree that it's a good way to do things—these are two separate issues.
forums.adobe.com/thread/440037?tstart=0
(Talking about editing compressed codecs.)
Even if Premiere can Import some of these files with other CODEC’s inside, there are very often problems. Some common ones are OOS (Out Of Sync) issues, no Audio, no Video, horribly pixelated Video, partial display of Video or Video and Audio that halt, or stutter.
forums.adobe.com/thread/546811?tstart=0
(Again talking about editing in a compressed "delivery format" codec like DivX AVI.)
Even if we install it, our particular NLE might not be able to work with it for editing. Part of this is often because the AV file is not in an editable form, but in a “delivery-only” form.
More links:
www.pacifier.com/~jtsmith/ADOBE.HTM#edcf
www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/video3.htm#4
tangentsoft.net/video/mpeg/edit.html
This is an restructured version of this thread, which I will unsticky and use this in its place. NOTE: This thread was not prompted by any one question or comment by any individual member. I've been meaning to write this new tutorial for a long time. I believe the previous tutorial did not succinctly address the issues that were causing confusion, so here's another attempt!I CONVERT MY DVDs TO AVI (or MOV) OR I EDIT DOWNLOADED CLIPS. DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHAT KINDS OF FILES I USE?
Not all types of AVI (or MOV) files are good for editing. The kinds of AVI (or MOV, or MP4, or WMV) files that are often downloaded off the internet use a codec (type of compression) which too compressed to be stable for editing in Vegas, Premiere, Final Cut, or other video software. Using some "all-in-one" converter software to convert your DVD to "some kind of AVI" (usually making an entire movie 700 MB to 1-2 GB, more or less) also results in a file that is too compressed for editing. This page explains more.
In order to get good picture quality and a stable editing experience, you usually have to end up editing with codecs that are larger in file size. Some of these codecs are: DV, Lagarith (Windows only), MJPEG, Photo JPEG, JPEG 2000, Apple Intermediate Codec (Mac only), and HuffYUV (mostly Windows). It is strongly recommended that you start converting your DVD (or downloaded footage) to an AVI (or MOV) file using one of these codecs.
A lot of fan vidders are resistant to using larger-sized "editable" codecs (like DV AVI, Lagarith AVI, or MJPEG AVI or MJPEG MOV). They think that it's a bad thing that these kinds of files are bigger than the DivX, XviD AVI files or perhaps WMV files that they've been using. They don't yet understand that too often these smaller files can be the cause of headaches down the road.
"But my friends edit with [XviD AVI, DivX AVI, WMV, MPEG, VOB, MP4] and they aren't having any problems!"
Yeah, and they won't have any problems until suddenly, they do have problems. One of the frustrating things about editing in these smaller-sized clips is that they seem to be working fine, until the day that they don't. They are unpredictable.
"But my editing software just doesn't 'like' AVI files, that's all."
See above. It's the codec. Your software (if you are on Windows) will open an AVI file with a good codec for editing.
"But these exact same codecs worked yesterday, so they cannot be the cause of any problems I'm having."
That was yesterday. This is today. Read the entry above.
"It's not a bad codec that's causing my editing problems (blank screen, crashing), it's . . . ."
Yes, it's the codec. No, it's not a virus. Of course all Windows-based editors will open AVI files; they just don't want to open some skanky AVI with a bad codec. Vegas (or whatever software you're using) will work great with Lagarith, DV AVI, or other files with right codec (compression). No, Vegas (or other video editing program) is probably not broken. It simply has decided to stop working with non-editable codecs.
WE GET QUESTIONS/CONCERNS ABOUT THIS KIND OF THING FREQUENTLY.
"Help! Vegas stopped working!" "The screen is black, but the audio showed up!" "No audio showed up!" "The picture quality is really bad all of a sudden!" "My software has started to crash all the time!"
IT'S ALMOST ALWAYS CAUSED BY USING THE WRONG CODECS. That's what it is. I can start making a list of old threads where users have complained of these exact problems, if that will help convince many of you that these problems are not new, and are almost always solved by changing to a better codec.
This thread is not meant to admonish you or "shame" you into using a different video conversion process, if you're happy with the one you're currently using. Nor is it meant to make you feel bad because you didn't know this before now. (How are you to know if no one tells you?
) If you are editing DivX, XviD, MPEG, WMV, MPEG-4 files and they are working for you and you have no complaints, then that's your business. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and all that—we understand. But it's important that you know the risks of continuing to edit in these formats. Because (as we have seen on these forums) very often vidders do eventually have difficulties.
If you prefer to continue to edit in the same compressed format that you've used all along, that is fine. Perhaps you'll be lucky and experience no problems. But if you do, you now know that there are more stable editing formats out there which won't give you the same difficulties.
OTHER FAQs
"I don't know what kind of AVI (or MOV) file I'm editing in. It's AVI. That's all I know."
You need to know. If you use Windows, you can install G-Spot (follow this tutorial on how to use it) to help you identify the codec you are using. If you are on a Mac, open your file in Quicktime, go to "Windows >> Show Movie Inspector" and then under the heading for "Format," it will list the codec (DivX, H.264, DV, etc).
"I think I'm already getting very good picture clarity by editing in DivX/XviD (whatever)."
Are you sure about that? Recently I did a test with a higher quality XviD download of a show (about 450 MB for a 43 minute episode, rather than the typical 350 MB file size) and compared it to a clip I converted at higher settings from a DVD rip. Here are the results:
richard-armitage.org/quality-samples/Comparison-DVD-rip-vs-XviD.jpg
And here's an entire tutorial which explains how you can increase video quality by switching to a better codec.
"I'm editing with [XXXX], and you don't specifically list it as one of the file types not to use. That must mean it's okay, right?"
Possibly, but often not. But one way to guess is to analyze the file size. Is 5 minutes of footage less than maybe 150-200 MB? Then it's probably too compressed for editing. (An exception to this would be if you are using MJPEG or JPEG 2000 with more compression, as outlined in this tutorial[/url], or if for some odd reason you were editing DivX or H.264 at a really high bitrate, which makes the file size larger.) If you are unsure about whether you're using a good codec for editing, please post a question in this thread.
"But I don't have enough disk space to edit in one of these other formats!"
If you are hurting for disk space, consider following this tutorial, which can help you reduce the amount of disk space you use by a considerable amount, while still using editable codecs. Also, external USB 2.0 (or Firewire) drives are not too expensive these days. A lot of vidders store their media on an external drive.
"I can't (or don't want) to switch to a better video format yet. Is there any way to prepare DivX, XviD, etc clips so they are better quality and/or are more stable?"
Sorry, no, we're not going to give you any advice which involves continuing to use a bad codec for editing. If we do that, then we'll have to help you troubleshoot the problems that will inevitably occur. If disk space is a concern, again, this tutorial[/url] will show you how to use an editable format but save a lot of disk space.
"But I just converted all my episodes over to XviD (DivX, whatever) and I don't want to have to re-do that!"
You don't have to if you don't want to. But you are at risk of having problems sooner or later. Your software doesn't particularly care if you went to a lot of trouble to convert all those episodes! It'll crash anyway!
"But the editing software I'm using says it will use DivX AVI (or whatever) files!"
Many software packages say they recognize "AVI" or "MOV" but don't get much into codecs. But some video editors will claim to open various "delivery" formats (like DivX), but not always without difficulties. I lurk on video editing message boards where editors are having all kinds of trouble getting various codecs to work with their software. (Often they are advised to just convert the troublesome file to DV or some other "tried and true" codec.) Even if the software claims it will work, there's no guarantee it'll work smoothly.
After all, if editing in all these "delivery" codecs (like WMV, XviD, etc) never caused problems, this tutorial would have no reason to exist, and no vidder would ever complain of black screen, crashing, or the myriad of other problems that seem to happen regularly.
"Only professionals care about this stuff."
Your software doesn't know or care if you're a professional. It'll crash anyway.
"Nobody notices or cares about the difference in quality"
How can you be so sure? More and more fan video fans are watching on 24" (and above) widescreen monitors. They want to view their favorite fan videos at fullscreen. In my experience running a site featuring a collection of downloadable fan videos, the fans yearn for higher quality and become spoiled once they have it. Higher quality is the future. Even if you don't notice the difference, many of your fans will.
"Where are the tutorials which will show me how to convert to a better format?"
Here are a few: Convert your DVD to DV files (AVI or MOV). This is probably the easiest and quickest process to use.
Convert to Lagarith with VirtualDubMod. (A simplified tutorial on how to use VirtualDubMod is here.) Great quality, some wonderful built-in filters. Windows only.
Save disk space with MJPEG or JPEG 2000. Windows editors and Final Cut Pro.
iMovie '09 mini tutorial. (Shows how to convert your files for iMovie 09.)
Clever workaround for preparing clips in iMovie 6 (also iMovie 5).
AMV method. Go whole hog and get gorgeous quality by following the wonderful (but exacting) "AMV.org" method. (Windows only.)
POSSIBLE EXCEPTIONS
A few applications (like Adobe Premiere CS5) have announced support for editing H.264, a compressed format. Other video editing applications claim to be able to handle MPEG-2. (How well they handle it—and how frame accurate they are—depends.) If you are using software which claims to edit one of these codecs natively, and you're having no problems, that's great! Like is said above, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Most of the time these unique "exceptions" won't apply to the average vidder who is used to editing in those downloaded WMV or XviD files. Furthermore, there are video professionals who do not approve of the trend of apps supporting editing of compressed at all, since it they feel it will lower quality and not give as good results as editing standard editing formats.
IN CONCLUSION:
We're not going to arm-wrestle anyone away from whatever type of file they want to use for editing. But please, don't encourage other members of this forum to use this method of editing, when we've established that it can often be a troublemaker. You might never have problems with it, but some other unlucky member might. And if another member has problems, they'll more likely come to us (the moderators) for help, and probably not you.
Also, please realize that any "workarounds" anyone suggests might buy the vidder a little time (which could be good if they just want to finish a current project) but are not a final solution if the workaround involves continuing to edit in compressed codecs.
We didn't make up this stuff about XviD, DivX, MPEG-2, etc, being unstable for editing. We are just reporting the reality. This tutorial (the previous incarnation of this thread) has more links and data on why exactly editing in compressed formats is bad and unstable.
SOME ADDITIONAL LINKS.
Sometimes we get members who are confused by this codec stuff and want to argue about why it is such a big deal. They'll say something like, "Well, I like this other way, so it's a matter of opinion" or some variation on that. When someone does that, I'll be directing them to these links.
If, after reading them, a person still feels that editing in DivX, WMV, or whatever is "just as good," then they need to compile links and tutorials from credible and technically-sound sources which debunk the commonly-held belief that the compressed nature of inter-frame compression (#5 on this page) can cause a lot of trouble for a lot of editing software. If they can't or won't do that, they'll be asked to stop arguing about it.
This is not to say that any vidder should not edit in any way they see fit, but they must understand that "liking" to do something a certain way, and expecting others (in this case, many members of this forum) to agree that it's a good way to do things—these are two separate issues.
forums.adobe.com/thread/440037?tstart=0
(Talking about editing compressed codecs.)
Even if Premiere can Import some of these files with other CODEC’s inside, there are very often problems. Some common ones are OOS (Out Of Sync) issues, no Audio, no Video, horribly pixelated Video, partial display of Video or Video and Audio that halt, or stutter.
forums.adobe.com/thread/546811?tstart=0
(Again talking about editing in a compressed "delivery format" codec like DivX AVI.)
Even if we install it, our particular NLE might not be able to work with it for editing. Part of this is often because the AV file is not in an editable form, but in a “delivery-only” form.
More links:
www.pacifier.com/~jtsmith/ADOBE.HTM#edcf
www.animemusicvideos.org/guides/avtech/video3.htm#4
tangentsoft.net/video/mpeg/edit.html
Wow Elvira, thankyou for that wealth of information, I didn't know about this 'G-spot' program, but it looks mighty useful! 
Elvira, you've done it again! You have provided us with a wealth of info about codecs to help us get the best quality picture in our vids that we can possibly have! I can't wait to get an external hard drive so I can REALLY convert all my clips to the LARGE file sizes, and I know EXACTLY where to come for the tutorial for that- this forum!! You are the best Elvira!! 
My family watches the videos I make (and they need to be DVD quality, LOL my 2 year old brother watches them instead of cartoons) and so I'm always looking for ways to deliver better and more entertaining videos to watch. What would I do without your tutorials! 
)
I use Sony Vegas Movie Studio 9 platinum
